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This question was closed without grading. Reason: No acceptable answer
Apr 30 12:03
17 days ago
46 viewers *
French term

établissement fermé

French to English Other Law (general)
I am translating a piece about a young person who started an apprenticeship as a bricklayer/mason in a "établissment fermé". Please could somebody explain the meaning of this term.

The whole sentence is as follows:

"Ainsi très jeune, Jean commence un apprentissage de maçon dans un établissement fermé et réussit son CAP".

For more context, this is recounting a family history, taking place in France in the mid 1970's.

I am thinking maybe it is "in house", whereby the company trains them and then takes them on at the end of the apprenticeship?

Thanks in advance.
Proposed translations (English)
3 +6 youth detention centre
4 closed institution
2 (City & Guilds-type) apprenticeship-skills boot camp
References
Établissement fermé
youth detention center
Change log

Apr 30, 2024 12:15: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "établissment fermé" to "établissement fermé"

Apr 30, 2024 12:15: Yolanda Broad changed "Term asked" from "établissment fermé" to "établissement fermé"

Apr 30, 2024 23:09: philgoddard changed "Field" from "Tech/Engineering" to "Other" , "Field (write-in)" from "Building" to "(none)"

Discussion

Schtroumpf May 2:
@ Emmanuella Certes les faits se sont déroulés il y a longtemps, mais le narrateur peut très bien écrire à l'heure actuelle et donc utiliser une terminologie qui n'existait pas à l'époque. Même si c'est sans doute impropre. Comme vous le dites vous-même : "juste de la prose" éventuellement.
Emmanuella May 2:
Thanks. N.B Les CEF ont été crées en 2002. Le texte se situe au milieu des années 1970.
Keith Jackson May 2:
I agree with you, Emmanuella. To be clear: a centre éducatif fermé (CEF) is NOT a Centre de formation d'apprentis (CFA), and a CFA is NOT "fermé" or a prison (though it may FEEL LIKE one to the apprentices). Per essere chiari: un Centre éducatif fermé (CEF) non è un Centre de formation d'apprentis (CFA), e un CFA non è "fermé" o una prigione (anche se può sembrare tale agli apprendisti).
Emmanuella May 2:
Hier ,vous avez indiqué un CEF. Maintenant, vous indiquez un CFA. Peut-être mais l'établissement n'est pas 'fermé'.
Keith Jackson May 2:
CFA Having taught English at a CFA, I can confirm that this is a school for apprentices. It just *feels* like a prison for the apprentices (and I'm not joking!). If they fail the school, they lose their job, if they lose their job, they're kicked out of school. It has been likened to modern slave labour by some.
Emmanuella May 2:
Je me demande si le terme utilisé par le rédacteur est un terme technique ou juste de la prose. Les jeunes ne peuvent résider dans un CEF ( structure moderne) plus de 12 mois (6x2). Comment obtenir un CAP dans ces conditions ?
Voilà pourquoi j'ai pensé à une sorte de pensionnat/internat comme il en existait à l'époque.
Johannes Gleim May 2:
@ Emmanuella Schtroumpf a raison : Le CFA n'est pas un établissement fermé :

Les Centres de Formation des Apprentis (CFA) sont des organismes de formation certifiés qui préparent au contrat d’apprentissage.
:
Un apprenti conclu un contrat de travail en alternance avec une entreprise, appelé « contrat d’apprentissage », à durée déterminée (CDD) ou indéterminée (CDI). Beaucoup plus fréquent dans le secteur privé, un contrat d’apprentissage peut également être conclu dans la fonction publique sous le nom de PACTE et comprend alors des dispositions particulières.
https://www.alternance-professionnelle.fr/cfa-centres-format...

L’approbation d’Anastasia est donc erronée.
Schtroumpf May 2:
@ Emmanuella Même si les règles étaient strictes dans les internats, on ne les disaient pas "fermés" pour autant dans les années 70 (où j'étais déjà en France, d'ailleurs), pas plus qu'ensuite. Je suis d'accord qu'il n'y a pas forcément de détention au sens judiciaire : là on serait dans les quartiers des mineurs de prisons, chose qui existe également. Les jeunes en institution fermée sont plutôt des "cas à problèmes" ayant des besoins *éducatifs* très particuliers - et qui ne sont pas lâchés dans la société sans surveillance car ils risquent de nuire à autrui, voire à eux-mêmes. Ils sont pour la plupart déjà délinquants.
Le lien BTPCFA fourni par Anastasia ne mentionne d'ailleurs pas le terme "fermé".
Johannes Gleim May 1:
@ Lindsey Thank you very much for the information, especially for the fact that, to your knowledge, the young people have not been in trouble with the law and that it can therefore hardly be a prison. The assumption remains that it is a home for young people who are difficult to educate, physically or mentally handicapped or under observation for other reasons, and possibly also a boarding school.
Be that as it may, I see myself confirmed in considering this as a generic term for an institution with closed gates and walls and translate it correspondingly as "closed/closed institution". I have cited many examples in my proposal and in the discussion where young people are employed, learning or doing an apprenticeship or vocational training.
Emmanuella May 1:
@ Schtroumpf.
Les pensions/ internats des années 1970 étaient bien des centres plus ou moins fermés ou l'on était élevé 'à la trique. L'Asker a donné des précisions dont il faut tenir compte.
J'ai fort bien saisi le sens de votre commentaire
Lindsey Sidebottom (asker) May 1:
Cannot provide much more information Sorry, the only other context I can give is that the youth in question had been in the care system but had not, to my knowledge, ever been in trouble with the law.
Johannes Gleim Apr 30:
Samples for HM YOI's Adult prisoners at HMP & YOI Hatfield are usually placed in resettlement employment, with outside companies with guaranteed minimum wage. Young Offenders are usually placed in education and vocational training. Courses include industrial cleaning and catering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Hatfield

Education at the prison is provided by Milton Keynes College and courses offered include: Literacy and Numeracy; Social & Life Skills; Communication & Application of Number; ESOL; Practical Crafts; Visual Art; Cookery; Information Technology; Painting and Decorating; Woodwork; Horticulture; Cleaning Science; Physical Education; and Music.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Brinsford

The regime at Lincoln includes production workshops, charity workshops, laundry, education, vocational training courses and Offending behaviour courses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Lincoln
Kim Metzger Apr 30:
His Majesty's Young Offenders Institutions ... are youth detention centres for offenders between ages 15 to 21 in the United Kingdom. These offenders will have received a custodial sentence following criminal offence convictions or may be being held on remand awaiting trial on pending charges. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Majesty's_Young_Offender_I...
Johannes Gleim Apr 30:
Other types of closing/closed institutions Establishing NCWF as a dedicated training facility will allow the BCOA to expand scenario-based training within the curriculum because as a closed institution, it offers real institution design features such as inmate/family-visiting, inmate housing units, dining rooms, recreational areas, clinical treatment centers, and sally ports.
https://esd.dof.ca.gov/Documents/bcp/2122/FY2122_ORG5225_BCP...

The teach-out activity may be conducted by the closing institution in order to provide an opportunity to enrolled students to complete their programs or may be conducted by other institutions who permit students from the closing or closed institution to complete their programs at their institution.
:
The commenter provided Department of Labor (DOL) data showing that DOL proposed to create “standards recognition entities” (SREs) that would act like accrediting agencies to approve apprenticeship programs.
https://www.regulations.gov/document/ED-2018-OPE-0076-0844
Johannes Gleim Apr 30:
training and education in closed prisons The secondary proposal was that a corresponding educational system would be established in "closed prison. For prisoners, this meant that as early as while they were in remand, they could begin planning how to best utilise their incarceration time, and that they would have access to a far broader range of educational opportunities. The plan emphasised the importance of taking the prisoner’s own educational interests into account. Information material was published, describing the educational and vocational options at the two pilot project prisons, as well as how prisoners’ educational and/or vocational needs and interests were analysed
:
t was therefore proposed that the existing areas for activities in prisons (production, maintenance work and education) be supplemented with a new area, to be known as "production schools", which would correspond to the "production schools" for young people that were part of the state education system.
http://norden.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:701860/FULLTEX...
Johannes Gleim Apr 30:
open/closed prison with training The principle or "custodial differentiation" is recognised in the United Kingdom as an essential factor in the individualisation of treatment of offenders. The usual practice is to refer to the traditional walled and cellular prison (maximum security, as a "closed prison" and to one which presents no physical barriers to escape (minimum security) as an "open prison".
:
In all types of "closed prisonthe training of the prisoners is based on trust and self-discipline with maximum of association and responsibility. This may also be said of the regime in a closed training prison, but in open conditions prisoners are more exposed to the pressures of ordinary life, and the opportunity to escape calls for greater self-control.
https://www.unodc.org/documents/congress//Previous_Congresse...
Johannes Gleim Apr 30:
@ Lindsey Could you please tell us what type of institution it is. The term "établissement fermé" covers many different purposes and forms, from prisons to labour camps to psychiatric clinics and boarding schools that you can leave at the weekend and return to on Monday. This would be a semi-open institution, for example.
Keith Jackson Apr 30:
A possibility: Centre éducatif fermé https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_éducatif_fermé
Annika Thornton Apr 30:
I haven't heard this term before.

If it were in Switzerland, it would mean a prison!

As it's in France, I'm inclined to think it might mean the students stay at the school all the time for their training, rather than the usual mixture of school lessons and apprenticeship in a company.

I could be completely wrong of course.

Proposed translations

59 mins

closed institution

Á cet égard, le transfèrement d'un établissement fermé vers un établissement ouvert ou semi-ouvert pour faciliter la préparation à la libération [...]
euromed-justice.eu
One of the most common transfers in this respect is the transfer from a closed to an open or a semi-open institution, which facilitates the preparation for release.
euromed-justice.eu

Le condamné à une peine d'emprisonnement de plus longue durée est d'abord placé en établissement fermé et ensuite en établissement ouvert.
localhost
Those sentenced to longer terms are first committed to a closed institution and later transferred to an open institution.
localhosr

L'établissement fermé est d'habitude entouré d'une haute muraille et muni de divers dispositifs de sécurité pour empêcher les évasions et les contacts extérieures. [...]
localhost
Closed institution are usually surrounded by a high wall and provided with various security measures to prevent escapes and outside contacts.
https://www.linguee.com/french-english/translation/établisse...

La nécessité de protéger les enfants en question a été invoquée pour justifier leur incarcération dans un établissement fermé.
The need to protect them has been offered as the justification for incarcerating such children in a closed institution.

J'imaginais alors qu'une maison de retraite était un établissement fermé, à l'instar d'un hôpital psychiatrique.
I had imagined that a nursing home is a closed institution, similar to a psychiatric clinic.

Le SPT recommande que toute personne amenée dans établissement fermé soit examinée dès son admission par un médecin indépendant compétent.
The SPT recommends that any person brought to a closed institution must be examined by a competent independent medical practitioner upon admission.
https://context.reverso.net/translation/french-english/établ...

"closed institution" 29,100 results

Closed institution
A closed organization that is set apart from the rest of society, forms an all-encompassing social environment, and serves as the only source of meeting the needs of its members.
https://www.healthbenefitstimes.com/glossary/closed-institut...

Prison and other closed institutions
• Stockholm University
• Research
• Research subjects
• Chriminology
In addition to the prison, this research area includes institutions such as special youth homes and institutions with closed youth care or closed substance abuse care
https://www.su.se/english/research/research-subjects/chrimin...

Prisons are either closed or open institutions.
Open institutions include open prisons, labour colonies and other penal institutions which the criminal sanctions agency has ordered to function as open institutions. Open prisons are independent institutions whereas open prison units function administratively under some closed institutions.
https://stat.fi/meta/kas/rangaistuslaito_en.html

Please note that the transcript and certificate files received from closed institutions are sometimes incomplete. As such, failure to locate an academic record from a closed institution does not invalidate the student’s claim of attendance or the completion of a course or program of study.
https://www.tn.gov/thec/bureaus/student-aid-and-compliance/p...
Peer comment(s):
neutral philgoddard : But they're not relevant. Your last one, for example, refers to schools that have shut down.
2 days 3 hrs
See other refs. like: "Closed institution are usually surrounded by a high wall and provided with various security measures "
Something went wrong...
+6
2 hrs

youth detention centre

For me this smacks of centre éducatif fermé :

https://www.cairn.info/revue-le-sociographe-2015-5-page-55.h...

"L'adolescent de 16 ans qui a roué de coups sa professeure d'anglais en plein cours, le 7 décembre dernier, dans le lycée Gustave Eiffel, à Reims, a été placé en centre éducatif fermé, ainsi que sous contrôle judiciaire dans l'attente de son procès, a-t-on appris ce lundi."

What as a boy I knew, from a distance, as 'borstal':
" borstal in British English1. (formerly in Britain) an informal name for an establishment in which offenders aged 15 to 21 could be detained for corrective training. Since the Criminal Justice Act 1982, they have been replaced by youth custody centres (now known as young offender institutions) "

Or youth detention centre:

"Highly effective schools within juvenile facilities provide high school curriculum, opportunities for General Equivalency Diploma (GED) preparation, special education services, certified teachers, small student to teacher ratio, connection with families, and vocational training opportunities"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youth_detention_center#Special...




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2024-04-30 14:29:49 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Au moyen d’une enquête ethnographique en établissement fermé pour mineurs, ce travail propose une analyse d’une forme de traitement institutionnel des illégalismes au prisme des expériences institutionnelles des acteurs. La recherche se focalise notamment sur la relation entre intervenants socio-éducatifs et mineurs, en tant qu’expérience commune dans le cadre de pratiques professionnelles et d’un espace contraint. Ce travail s’appuie sur trois ans d’enquête menée dans un Centre éducatif fermé (CEF) et un Établissement pénitentiaire pour mineurs (EPM).
https://theses.fr/2020REN20020
Based on an ethnographic survey in Custodial Institutions for Juveniles, this thesis aims to analyze a form of treatment of illegalisms through the scope of institutional experiences. Among other perspectives, the research focuses on the relationship between socio educational actors and juveniles, as a common experience in the context of professional practices and constrained environments. This work is based on a three years’ research achieved in a Custodial Education Facility (CEF) and in a Young Offender Institution (EPM)
https://theses.fr/2020REN20020
Peer comment(s):
agree Kim Metzger : https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g09/414/26/pdf/g09414...
52 mins
agree philgoddard
2 hrs
agree AllegroTrans
22 hrs
agree Schtroumpf : Absolument !
1 day 4 hrs
neutral Emmanuella : les CEF ont été créés en 2002 ( cf. votre reference. Nous sommes dans les années 1970.
2 days 2 hrs
agree Andrew Bramhall
2 days 3 hrs
agree Simon Charass
2 days 6 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 day 7 hrs

(City & Guilds-type) apprenticeship-skills boot camp

boot camp: imported Transatlantically could mean both for juvenile / youth offenders or non-violent trainees, so covers both scenarios. An English-teacher acquaintance in the South of France does agree with a type of prison, detention or *remand centre / bail hostel*).

No hurdling prowess required, though Feltham Borstal aka Young Offenders' Insitutional boys - on escaping - sure could jump over those garden fences in nearby villages of Sunbury and Walton on Thames.

City & Guilds: 'can I PLEASE refrain from Anglocentric equating with UK qualifications'.


Example sentence:

IATE: animal health [AGRICULTURE, FORESTRY AND FISHERIES, agricultural activity] COM fr établissement fermé COM en confined establishment

USA: Juvenile boot camp programs typically exclude some types of offenders, but only a very few limit eligibility to those who are nonviolent or first-time offenders

Reference:

http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english-to-french/law-general/2359981-boot-camp.html

http://www.multiverse.io/en-US/blog/apprenticeships-vs-bootcamps-vs-internships-what-s-the-difference

Peer comment(s):
neutral AllegroTrans : earwig oh again
1 day 22 hrs
Something went wrong...

Reference comments

1 hr
Reference:

Établissement fermé

Il s'agit d'un internat
https://www.mfr-chatte.org/formations-5-6-cap-maconnerie.htm...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 heures (2024-04-30 15:21:39 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://lyc-lecorbusier-cormeilles.ac-versailles.fr/les-form...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree Anastasia Kalantzi : https://www.btpcfa.com/formations/formations-en-apprentissag...
42 mins
Merci Anastasia
neutral philgoddard : This looks interesting but, once again, you've just given a bunch of links without explaining their relevance.//As far as I can see, neither of your references says anything about 'établissement fermé'.
1 day 42 mins
Établissement fermé est un terme utilisé par l'auteur introuvable en français
neutral Schtroumpf : En 45 ans, je n'ai jamais entendu qu'un internat serait appelé établissement ou centre fermé !
1 day 5 hrs
Il y a plusieurs types d'Internat et j'ai 70 ans https://www.allo-education.fr/etablissements/internat/pensio...
agree Adrian MM.
1 day 6 hrs
Merci
Something went wrong...
3 hrs
Reference:

youth detention center

230. Le Ministère du travail et de la protection sociale a, en collaboration avec l’ONG internationale «Child Right Centre» et l’UNICEF, dispensé aux enseignants et éducateurs de l’école professionnelle et technique spécialisée (établissement fermé pour garçons âgés de 14 à 18 ans) une formation concernant l’inadmissibilité des châtiments corporels dans l’école et l’inculcation aux élèves d’une discipline non fondée sur le recours aux méthodes violentes. https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g09/414/26/pdf/g09414...

230. The Ministry of Labour and Social Protection, in collaboration with the international NGO “Children’s Legal Centre” and UNICEF, has provided teachers and instructors in the Special Vocational and Technical Institute (a secure institution for boys aged 14 to 18) with training in the unacceptability of the use of corporal punishment and the art of instilling in the pupils a discipline not based on recourse to violence. https://documents.un.org/doc/undoc/gen/g09/414/25/pdf/g09414...
Peer comments on this reference comment:
agree philgoddard
1 day 2 hrs
agree Schtroumpf
1 day 3 hrs
Something went wrong...
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