This site uses cookies. Some of these cookies are essential to the operation of the site, while others help to improve your experience by providing insights into how the site is being used. For more information, please see the ProZ.com privacy policy.
Cookie settings
visuel plein pot
MSC G +D
Sep 5, 2022 11:57
1 yr ago
66 viewers *
French term

je n'ai de permission à

French to English Art/Literary Poetry & Literature 19th century letter
Monsieur

Je remplis aussi un devoir en ma qualité de Français, en vous declarant que ne reconnoissant en Égypte d'autre autorité que celle du Pasha, je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre, encore moins au Consul d'angleterre qui n'a certainement point, d'ailleurs, les ridicules prétensions que vous lui supposez.

Si je parviens à me procurer des ouvriers plus experts que ceux qu'on m'a envoyés du Caire et auxquels je puisse confier cette entre prise delicate ne doutez nullement, Monsieur, que vouz n'aurez un jour la plaisir de voir dans La Musée de France quelques uns des beaux bas reliefs du tombeau d'Osirei, ce sera au reste le seul moyen de les sauver d'une destruction prochaine et en mettant ce projet en execution J'agirai en ami véritable de l'antiquité puisque j'enleverai ces monuments pour les conserver et non pas pour les vendre.

J'ai l'honneur etc.etc.

F.Champollion le jeune

à Thebes le 14 juin 1829

I'm struggling to decide whether this has a negative sense (and lacks the 'pas' in a similar vein to 'pouvoir') or if it's an expletive 'ne'...can anyone shed some light on this please?

TIA!
Proposed translations (English)
5 +10 I don't need [anybody else's] permission
4 +5 I don't have to ask for anyone else's permission
4 +3 I require no other permission
3 it's not as if I have to seek anyone's say-so
3 I'm under no obligation to wait on any individual's permission

Discussion

Myriam Seers Sep 5, 2022:
@ Alison Fascinating, thanks!
ph-b (X) Sep 5, 2022:
Alison, Nice find!
That settles it and answers Verity's question.
Alison MacG Sep 5, 2022:
@Myriam Here is one translated version, from Egypt: How a Lost Civilization was Rediscovered By Joyce Tyldesley



https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=WG0JalrIgmUC&printsec=fr...
Myriam Seers Sep 5, 2022:
Double negation in French This article tracks the introduction of double negation (ne....pas/point) in French after the classical era. Interesting!
https://www.cairn.info/revue-langue-francaise-2004-3-page-19...

Correction on my point below, they were certainly already using double negation with "point", since he uses it in the following sentence. But I think single negation with "ne" was still sufficient. Single negation by omitting "pas"/"point" no longer being in use are modern developments, I think.
Myriam Seers Sep 5, 2022:
First, can we all stop a moment to marvel at how cool it is that Verity is translating one of Champollion's letters from Egypt?!? I'm surprised they have not yet all be translated, but cool job, Verity!!

I think all of the translations are accurate in sense, so the question is which accurately conveys the register. I don't know enough about 19th century register to weigh in. Was "don't" in common usage then? Would possessive "'s" have been used in a formal letter? Or would they have said something more like "I need not request permission from anyone, least of all the Consul..."
I don't know the answer (I'm a legal translator, and definitely not an expert in historical register), just raising the questions.

Regarding "ne" being sufficient to negate, it absolutely is. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, "pas" is a relatively modern addition to French. Latin and the Romance languages, and English for that matter, negate with the ne/no/not/etc words, and French added "pas" thereafer. It may even have been seen as colloquial in Champollion's time, hence its absence here. Again, just a thought as I can't be certain without research.
Tony M Sep 5, 2022:
@ Asker "j'ai à..." is pretty much the same as the EN "I have to...'
I think here the construction is almost a deformation of 'ne...personne...'
Daryo Sep 5, 2022:
He doesn't really say "I answer to the Pasha" - that would make him some kind of agent or employee of the Pasha.

What he is saying is "I recognise only the Pasha as the ruler of / as having authority over this territory I'm in (i.e. Egypt)", so I couldn't care less about whatever anyone else has to say - that would be irrelevant / doesn't count for zilch.
Wolf Draeger Sep 5, 2022:
With ph-b and Emmanuella He says he doesn't need anybody's permission other than the ruler of Egypt, who I think would have been Muhammad Ali Pasha at the time.

You might phrase it as something like "I require the permission of none other" or "I need ask for permission from none other" if you want to translate into 19C English.

In other words, "You aren't the boss of me, the English aren't the boss of me, I answer only to the Pasha!"
Emmanuella Sep 5, 2022:
Oui, je ne dois demander la permission à quiconque.
P.S. évidemment si ce n'est au Pacha
ph-b (X) Sep 5, 2022:
Lire « je n'ai aucune permission à demander à qui que ce soit »
« je n'ai besoin de demander la permission de personne »
et variations sur un même thème.

PS Agree with Wolf: I answered your question about ne, but the whole sentence says that "Champo" recognizes none other than...

Proposed translations

+10
1 hr
Selected

I don't need [anybody else's] permission

The actual translation will depend on whether you go with 19C or 20-21C English and what style you're lending the writer (whose writing skills are nothing to, er, write home about).

The context being the French and English vying for influence over Egypt in the 19th century. Spoiler alert: the British win.

From the CNRTL:
Avoir à + inf. impliquant une idée, plus ou moins nette, d'obligation. Être contraint de.

From Le Petit Robert 2011:
AVOIR À (et l'inf.): être dans l'obligation de. > 1. devoir.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 3 hrs (2022-09-05 14:59:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

A bit embarrassed to slam the wordsmithery of the great Champollion...maybe he was having a bad day.
Example sentence:

It is also my duty as a Frenchman to inform you that, recognizing no authority in Egypt other than that of the pasha, I require the permission of none other, let alone of the British Consul-General [...]

It is also my duty as a Frenchman to inform you that, recognizing the authority in Egypt of none but the pasha, I need ask no one else for permission, let alone the British Consul-General [...]

Reference:

http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/avoir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_Pasha

Peer comment(s):
agree ph-b (X) : "need s.o.'s permission" implies you have to ask s.o. for it, so no need to spell it out. Nice and concise.
12 mins
Ta.
agree Tony M
23 mins
Ta.
agree Samuël Buysschaert
1 hr
Ta.
agree Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
Ta.
agree James A. Walsh
2 hrs
Ta.
agree Yvonne Gallagher
2 hrs
Ta.
agree FPC
5 hrs
Ta.
agree Lara Barnett
7 hrs
Ta.
agree Nicole Acher
8 hrs
Ta.
agree Anastasia Kalantzi
9 hrs
Ta.
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+5
1 hr
French term (edited): je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre

I don't have to ask for anyone else's permission

... ne reconnoissant en Égypte d'autre autorité que celle du Pasha, je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre ...
=>
as I recognise only the Pasha's authority (/ the Pasha as being the only person in charge), I can't see why anyone else's opinion would matter in any way ...




--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2022-09-05 14:00:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

ah yes, obvious point of method: you have to look at the whole of

"je n'ai de permission à demander à personne autre"

a forceful way of saying:

"[as I recognise only the Pasha as the ruler of / as having authority over this territory I'm in (i.e. Egypt)] I couldn't care less about whatever anyone else has to say - that would be irrelevant / doesn't count for zilch."
Peer comment(s):
agree Tony M
35 mins
Thanks!
agree Jennifer White
45 mins
Thanks!
agree Samuël Buysschaert
1 hr
Merci!
agree Andrew Bramhall
1 hr
Thanks!
agree Nicole Acher
8 hrs
Thanks!
neutral Barbara Cochran, MFA : Doesn't sound very "forceful" to me. In fact, it sounds rather bland, like basic, literal translations often do./"Colorful", in either its pejorative or positive sense, is an inaccurate desc.of my trans. "Assertiveness", not "forcefulness", is at play.
20 hrs
Of course, there are plenty of more "colourful" / "punchy" variants ... But, given that the ST is in fact quite polite, I stayed on the same register. / Do you have some a priori phobia of "literal" translations? (they are not always wrong)
Something went wrong...
5 hrs

it's not as if I have to seek anyone's say-so

Past translation: 'I have to ask for not other permission' is slightly ambiguous for another person's or a differenmt form of permission.

No, say-so is not colloquial, as exemplified by the web ref.

I believe this version avoids the 'dull-thud' trap of the same word order-
Example sentence:

We are narrowing in on a way to understand a view we will call ethical realism. Ethical realism is the view that there are ethical truths and that they are made true by facts independent of anyone’s say so, will, or sentiment.

Reference:

http://human.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Philosophy/An_Introduction_to_Philosophy_(Payne)/09%3A_Meta-Ethics/9.02%3A_Realism_Conventionalism_a

Peer comment(s):
neutral Emmanuella : Nous sommes au 19e siècle. Not as if ? Il s'agit d'une lettre officielle
43 mins
neutral AllegroTrans : The text is direct and formal and from the C19th, with which in other matters, you seem to delight. However, this suggestion is too colloquial, too modern and far from the correct register
1 day 6 hrs
neutral Zorra Renard : Adrian has vever gotten over the collapse and decline of the Romanov, Hapsburg, and Hohenzollern dynasties!
14 days
Something went wrong...
1 hr

I'm under no obligation to wait on any individual's permission

...or any entity's permission...

Not very literal, but I think it reflects the assertive nature of the letter's verbiage.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 21 hrs (2022-09-06 09:54:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

And here's an additional response to SafeTex's "neutral": https://happentoyourcareer.com/podcast-archive/how-waiting-o...
Peer comment(s):
neutral Daryo : If you don't include the "autre" bit the meaning gets pretty deformed: the ST doesn't say "no one" but "ONLY ONE" (i.e. the Pasha) has to be asked for permission //The ST is more important than the way the question has been formulated.
46 mins
I chose to translate "autre" as "any individual's". If you were a credentialed literary translator like I am, you would certainly understand my interpretation a lot better, and my lack of interest in literalness, most of the time anyway.
neutral SafeTex : I coulnd't find anything by Googling that suggests that "wait on (someone's ) permission" is an English construction.
20 hrs
The phrase was the first entry I found when I googled it just now: https://www.tvfanatic.com/quotes/i-didnt-get-anywhere-in-my-...
neutral AllegroTrans : Yes, it reflects the assertiveness, but strays too far from the ST. Also "I'm" is too colloquial
1 day 10 hrs
Not at all, in the last two instances.
Something went wrong...
+3
1 day 12 hrs

I require no other permission

I think this reflects the register of the ST and avoids "do not" and "don't"
In modern English we would regard "don't need" as fairly forceful and direct but 19th century English differed in this regard

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:08:22 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

the first priest to be executed in Elizabeth I's reign
https://www.tudorsociety.com › blessed-thomas-woodh...
19 Jun 2017 — My lord, for this my poor advice I require no other thing of your Lordship but that ye will not molest by any means this bearer, ...

'Die Nibelungensage' ('The Nibelung Saga'), retold by Alfred ...
https://tonysreadinglist.wordpress.com › 2018/11/26
26 Nov 2018 — That is my wage, I require no other thanks. *** (my translation). The thing is, Brunhilde and Siegfried have a history (even if he can't ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:09:53 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Scripture & Creed - Lecture 3 - Newman Reader
https://www.newmanreader.org › works › arguments › l...
I require no other. For our own Church it is enough, as the Homilies show. It is enough that Scripture has been overruled to contain the whole Christian ...


Sir Watkin and the Italian Castrato
https://blog.library.wales › sir-watkin-and-the-italian-ca...
18 Aug 2014 — ... that in performing the part of Orpheus, I require no other bribe, or reward, than the pleasure of shewing you a ready obedience.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:11:15 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Gerileon of England. The second part of his most excellent ...
https://quod.lib.umich.edu › eebo
But I repute the déed to bee of so slender valew, in regard of your deserts, as for all my labour bestowed, I require no other thing of yee: but that ye ...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 12 hrs (2022-09-07 00:21:45 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

My Kingdom For A Wolf - Chapter 9 - Lithgaeril
https://archiveofourown.org › works › chapters
2 May 2022 — I require no other permission.” Aulë watched him with shrewd eyes for a few moments longer before his glare broke into a grudging smile, ...
Peer comment(s):
agree Daryo
9 hrs
thanks
agree Lucy Teasdale
1 day 9 hrs
thanks
agree Emmanuella
1 day 11 hrs
thanks
Something went wrong...
Close search
Term search
  • All of ProZ.com
  • Term search
  • Jobs
  • Forums
  • Multiple search